AC should have learned from the Best

I feel that AC should have looked at SQ's new 773 planes. I guess live and learn.

http://www.sqtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328&page=17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqyiqalzktg

AC may not be interested in offering SQ J-Class inflight service because it is catering to the Canadian market.
Yet it wants to charge the same or slightly higher J fare for its J-product.
I just priced:
21JUNE-28 JUNE YVR-ICN on AC discounted J C$5462.00
21JUNE-28 JUNE YVR-ICN on SQ J C$4326.00.

First off, SQ'a C service ex-YVR is on par with AC's and it might be considered inferior because SQ doesn't provide amenity kits in Business Class, and by the time the fleet is MX'd, the seating will be superior. Why do you think SQ sells the route for less? Also remember that SQ's flight to ICN is actually its flight to SIN, with a stop...so as often is the case on such flights, the carrier offers a cheaper fare to top up loads and skim cream from potential business that could go to 'national carriers" on the same route. When it comes to Business Class, the differences between carriers are marginal at best. Maybe FAs add some local cultural difference, which has always been a selling point for all Asian carriers to NAmericans, but otherwise food and drink are pretty much the same, and with AC's new seats and IFE, not much else different. The real difference -- your caviar and premium champagne -- comes in First Class. The only place SQ can really beat AC in the future will be its own upgraded B777 routes, but these are limited to the SFO flights and it will be a while before offered on others from the USA since the currrent C and F seats are still way ahead of what its prime competitors, UA and NW, have on offer. So no need to trump the competition...in fact, AC will have the most competitive Business cabin for a NAmerican carrier across the Pacific for quite a while.

BTW, AC will need to get a return on its investment. Once all the 777 are in service,Upgrades are not going to that easy.So the writing is on the wall as they say.

Given most AC flights to Asia are zero'd out in I-class, and we are told tough to get upgraded on unless you're an SE, demonstrates AC is getting the price it is asking for from full-J/discounted-C revenue customers. (Another reason SQ is discounting its business fares?) The new 777s will have 42 J seats, but this is 18 more than on the 763s, and about the same as on A330s and A340s. I agree AC will make upgrading more difficult by increasing the fare threshold for SWUs as it has done on many Eurpean routes. But this will really only impact business travelers on a fixed schedule who have to travel a peak business travel periods when those seats are bought at full price by others. Those of us who want to fly these routes and have flexibility to fly at off-peak business travel periods should have not problem using our upgrades on these routes, even at the gate if we are mere Elites.

The idea that using upgrade certs to sit in J/C on business trips should be the norm is no longer so as the premium market improves for the airlines. Upgrades will increasingly be useful for elites when they travel on leisure trips, in off peak periods, but no longer be an expectation on business trips unless you pay the higher Y fares that qualify for instant cert upgrading, or you pay for C or J.

On the contrary. I live in a realistic world where world class airlines like CX, SQ etc, provide what I want. I am waiting for the day that SQ is given the right to fly daily from YYZ, and that will be the day that I will perhaps stop posting here. But until that day, I feel that we should be allowed to debate about the lack of real competition and what we should expect from a world class airline. I don't see any harm in a healty disussion. ;)

Daily from YYZ? They have already said they aren't making money on a daily service from NYC, and you think they will fly daily from Toronto? Maybe via ANC or SEL, but airlines like AC - and others - will have 787 service to many new destinations. The 787 is destined to be the great hub destroyer of its day, the way the 767 fragmented a lot of transatlantic hubs in the early 1980s. Montreal used to be the most easterly gateway to Canada from Europe. That was the premise on which Mirabel was conceived, but the planners didn't take into account the advent of long-range twin jets. Now, a new generation of long-range, 200-seat twins is coming with the economics to make many more long-range point to point flying possible. The impact is going to be extraordinary, and it's not particularly good news for SQ or EK, particularly as they lose protected status in their own home turf. You will note that SQ has begun singing the financial blues. It's a song you can expect to hear often.

AC did as much with its 777s as it thought it needed to do. It's probably safe to say they were aware that an SQ-type cabin existed.

lol lol lol :D :D :D :D :D , Don't make me P in my pants OK !!:D :D

Your previous warnings of O8 had not received Canadian governmental approval to operate HKG/YVR were duly noted.:D

(Your more recent warnings about EK's proposed service to Canada being subject to Canadian governmental approval are also duly noted.)

:rolleyes:

It is subject to regulatory approval.

Don't talk about this stuff like you actually know what you are talking about because based on what you have just said, you don't understand a darn thing.

I am waiting for the day that SQ is given the right to fly daily from YYZ, and that will be the day that I will perhaps stop posting here.

Well that will certainly be a long, long time. Even if SQ had the rights to fly from YYZ, it is quite unlikely it would. The market -- and particularly the First and Business market -- could not support a non-stop similar to what it flies from EWR, nor even a one-stop via Europe as it does ex-JFK. CX offered First Class for a while ex-YYZ, did you ever fly it? Pay a revenue ticket to do so?

Has anyone here flown the SQ new J? I'm thinking of trying it on a YYZ-LAX-TPE-MNL in a couple of months... would of course return the fast way via HKG on the AC 777.

Thanks again for clarifying. I guess it really all does come down to expectations. I don't have the same expectations you do thus our difference in opinion. I'm not sure I have encountered AC saying it is trying to compete with SQ etc, in terms of it's product (well, I am sure I have never personally heard it) so I don't expect them to be.

I'm excited about the new 777's, even if they don't have 35" seats. And to be honest, I don't think any NA airline should be looking at a 35" seat, I think it would be a bad business decision that would hurt the passengers in the long run because when the airlines hurt due to wrong moves we hurt pretty quickly afterwards in price and service.

Montreal used to be the most easterly gateway to Canada from Europe. That was the premise on which Mirabel was conceived...

You are correct to a point. However, it was politics, not just the advent of the 767 and its ilk, that doomed Montreal as Canada's eastern gateway. Quebec's Liberal politicans made sure only very limited transAtlantic service could be provided from any city in "the east" other than Montreal. AC and BA and LH were permitted limited service from YYZ, but that was it. It took heavy pressure from Toronto cabinet ministers and the Ontario government, plus the demonstration that most immigrants were now settling in the area around Toronto, that forced an end to this policy. By then, the feds had committed to Mirabel, but because the airlines wanted to serve YYZ as Montreal fell into its post-Expo decline, there was never enough traffic to support the second airport under its original scheme.

It is quite true that the B767 and A330 made it viable for airlines to fly to more point-to-point markets, shifting the earlier concept of feeding passengers to major gateways where they'd board the larger 747s and DC10s/L1011s for the overseas hop. This didn't necessarily impact on other gateways (JFK, LAX, etc.) in the way it did Mirabel, as traffic was heavy enough to fill the jumbos even with passengers diverted to regional gateways where they'd board the smaller widebodies.

edit to delete

Yes, you made your points, but didn't answer my first question.

Which North American carriers B777's are AC's 2nd rate to?

Other than that thanks for explaining your point of view.

I agree they will never be best in the world but I guess it's all in expectations. I'm not expecting AC to be, I just expect them to be the best for my travel habits which means to be better than UA, US, AA, Delta, Continental, Westjet, etc. So far in my travel experience they are. If they weren't I would join another program.

You seem to be unsatisfied with their product and pricing, to each their own opinion, but I'm always curious why people stay with a product they don't find satisfactory.

As soon as the "real liberalization" occurs, we have no choice but to suffer with AC. I never compared the 777's, to any NA product. Since AC pretends to be a world class Airline, I compare them to other world class airlines. The rest of the NA airlines are tacky and lack in every aspect.

Reading back on similar posts by this person, it seems there really is no sense is trying to reason with djjaguar64. If it isn't SQ First Class it isn't good enough, no matter what it is. What a disappointing world he/she must live in. :(

I agree with most people here in that AC isn't out to offer a "World Class Product." Most, if not all, airlines advertise themselves as "world class" but it doesn't mean that is actually what they are trying to do.

I think Air Canada is actually catering quite well to the Canadian market that it primarily serves. If the airline started to offer some fancy J bed a la SQ, bumped up the cost of travel and restricted FF / upgrade inventory I think many of the people on this board would be furious - just look at the reactions to AC zeroing out I class on 777 flights.

Cheers

AC may not be interested in offering SQ J-Class inflight service because it is catering to the Canadian market.
Yet it wants to charge the same or slightly higher J fare for its J-product.
I just priced:
21JUNE-28 JUNE YVR-ICN on AC discounted J C$5462.00
21JUNE-28 JUNE YVR-ICN on SQ J C$4326.00.

BTW, AC will need to get a return on its investment. Once all the 777 are in service,Upgrades are not going to that easy.So the writing is on the wall as they say.

I'm sure SQ would pounce on YSB-YYZ in a heartbeat with 747, if only those mandarins up in Ottawa would stop violating our rights.

In return AC could have access to Singapore's domestic market.

I can only guess at what he means, probably some kind of more advanced open skies than most countries are contemplating. We know SQ would like to fly more often to Canada, as in daily to YVR, and probably to YYZ, but we know, from SQ's stated experience, that a SIN-YYZ or SIN-YVR nonstop is highly unlikely, so SQ will continue, in almost any scenario, to operate via third countries. As the 787 comes into service, it will be interesting to see whether service via a third country is attractive when many airlines will be opening new long-distance point to point services that they cannot offer economically with today's aircraft, either because they don't have the range or are too large.

Will you be so kind to share your source of this statement or is it your own personal view?

I don't know about losing money, but SQ has the ability to fly YVR-SIN nonstop, and as it claims to want to serve more of the Canada-India market, it should fly YVR-SIN nonstop to make its service to India more convenient. However, since it chooses not to do so, I can only assume that the stop in Inchon is either lucractive or it is the difference maker between profit and loss. I am all for giving SQ liberal access to Vancouver - on a nonstop basis. Then its claim to serve Canada-India would have more of a ring of truth to it. Right now, it is using that claim to try to get more of the Canada-Korea market when competition for consumers would be better served removing SQ from that market entirely and allowing a carrier like Asiana to enter the Canadian market. That would replace SQ's non-hub operation at Inchon with another hub operation (by Asiana, or more frequency via more KE flights).

The fact that SQ won't start nonstops to Vancouver puts the lie to its claim it serves the Canada-India market. If the latter was so important, SQ would fly YVR-SIN daily, non-stop. The fact is, and everyone in Ottawa knows it, the Canada-India claim is malarkey. SQ wants more of the Canada-Korea market.

Obviously, Canadians (and our businesses) don't like living it up in business class on the 773 ER then :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je8LBlwYJBw&NR=1

It's not that they won't live it up, they won't pay big bucks for it.:D

This debate reminds me a little of the reaction to the introduction of Volkswagen's Phaeton luxury car. Sure VW could and did build such a $100K world class car to compete with the likes of BMW, Mercedes, et al but it did so against it's core demographic of a more affordable brand of luxury for the masses. Needless to say the car was not well received by the public, which is too bad because by all technical accounts it is a impressive package of design & engineering.

So the point, to me at least, is that simply because you can bring something to market to compete with others doesn't always mean you should. I can only imagine the howls here and elsewhere if AC introduced new true F cabins a la SQ that were so overpriced for the market they were rarely if ever used by anyone but those UGing from business. There is something to be said for knowing your market and doing what you and not someone else is good at and I disagree with OP and his suggestion on that basis.

Air Canada: a fresh new look, more innovative, world-class products and services.[/COLOR]

Please don't confuse advertising puffery from genuine strategy. I've seen Bud Light advertised as being "world class" in taste - I doubt that they are going for the top 10% of the beer drinking market:). If you don't have a "First" product, you aren't even trying to offer a truly "world class" product. Most airlines don't offer First into Canada, or at least not consistently. LH only has J into both YVR and YYZ that I can tell, SQ only flies J into YVR, etc... BA offers First, CX does (although only on the flight that goest direct to NYC via YVR, so again, doesn't count in my view), JAL doesn't (J only), etc...

Given the consensus of most airlines is that Canada doesn't support a First product, I'm glad AC doesn't offer one. Do J in a way that suits the market.

As soon as the "real liberalization" occurs, we have no choice but to suffer with AC. I never compared the 777's, to any NA product. Since AC pretends to be a world class Airline, I compare them to other world class airlines. The rest of the NA airlines are tacky and lack in every aspect.

I don't know how many false premises you can cram into one thread.

1. Most people don't "suffer" Air Canada service. It may lack in comparison to SQ or other carriers, but I don't suffer aboard any Air Canada flight and I doubt most passengers do.

2. Air Canada does not define itself as a "world class" airline. British Airways has called itself the World's Favorite Airline. Toronto has tried to define itself as a world class city, but I am not aware of Air Canada defining itself as a "world class airline". That's your characterization. AC will talk about its network utility for Canadians and other advantages, but it has not had pretensions to being world class for two decades now. The day it abolished First Class around 1992, it abandoned any such pretentions. It is what it is, Canada's major international carrier catering to what Canadians are willing to pay for scheduled daily services.

3. I haven't flown on every US carrier in every type of aircraft so I can't say they are always tacky and lacking in every respect. Chances are, on some routes, they are quite decent. Most Canadians, and a lot of Americans, are value-driven. And what North American airlines tend to emphasize is value for money which is why you can upgrade to their premium cabins using some economy fares. And their J fares are often significantly discounted. It's not as if Americans, who have no shortage of experience with luxury products and resorts, have no appreciation of a luxury F or J product, it's that there are not enough Americans who are willing to spend on a luxury F or J product so the carriers adapt.

Frankly, you sound like a Kipling character, hoping that if you kiss up to SQ long enough perhaps it will allow you into the privileged class, the aristocracy, of F and fully paid J.

As soon as the "real liberalization" occurs, we have no choice but to suffer with AC.

What is that supposed to mean? :confused:

Unfortunately, SQ is handicapped by Canadian government protectionism to be able to only offer thrice weekly service.

Handicapped by government protectionism? Hm, why don't you say Canadian carriers are handicapped by not being related at all to the national government while SQ is? Why don't you mention that SQ doesn't play on a level playing field as Canadian carriers? Why don't you mention that if it wasn't for the stop in ICN, SQ would lose money on operation in Canada? Why don't you just say that the Canadian government is in the business of protecting Canadian carriers?

:rolleyes:

First off, SQ'a C service ex-YVR is on par with AC's and it might be considered inferior because SQ doesn't provide amenity kits in Business Class, and by the time the fleet is MX'd, the seating will be superior. Why do you think SQ sells the route for less? Also remember that SQ's flight to ICN is actually its flight to SIN, with a stop...so as often is the case on such flights, the carrier offers a cheaper fare to top up loads and skim cream from potential business that could go to 'national carriers" on the same route. When it comes to Business Class, the differences between carriers are marginal at best. Maybe FAs add some local cultural difference, which has always been a selling point for all Asian carriers to NAmericans, but otherwise food and drink are pretty much the same, and with AC's new seats and IFE, not much else different. The real difference -- your caviar and premium champagne -- comes in First Class. The only place SQ can really beat AC in the future will be its own upgraded B777 routes, but these are limited to the SFO flights and it will be a while before offered on others from the USA since the currrent C and F seats are still way ahead of what its prime competitors, UA and NW, have on offer. So no need to trump the competition...in fact, AC will have the most competitive Business cabin for a NAmerican carrier across the Pacific for quite a while.QUOTE]

1. SQ may not 77W on ICN-YVR route;on the otherhand SQ does not fly the regional J-777 either. ICN-YVR-ICN are 777-200ER. with the space bed and have been for a long time.
2. San Amenity Kit, SQ's inflight service is far superior to AC & will contiue to be unless of course AC improves its soft product. Yes,SQ does not offer caviar and premium champagne,however the quality of inflight meal & wine is way way better than what AC offers.The quality of food offered on SQ read about it here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5874903&postcount=271

I would consider this as inferior inflight service:

[QUOTE]it will be our last ever trip with AC on this sector. Food was a disgrace. Too disgusting to even post the menu on any thread. Over-greasy friend pork noodles that was cold and bland. They just couldn't get any recepies right - be it from one extreme to another. From the tastless/cold noodles to the extremely sweet raspberry cake for desert (god knows how much overload of sugar did they dump into the recepie.
http://www.sqtalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8497&postcount=1
And not: "it might be considered inferior because SQ doesn't provide amenity kits in Business Class".
Add to that SQ FA do not disappear after the meal service.Their presence is noted throughout the flight.
3. SQ may not offer an amenity kit, they do hand out most products found in amenity kits: slippers,eyeshades,earplugs, provide unlimited upply of toothbrushes & toothpaste in lavatories.
4.Most J-Class business travellers do not give a hoot about getting a amenity kit, judging by the ones left behind. I have left behind my SQ F-Kit and I have observed my other fellow pax do the same. These airline kits only take up precious space in carry-on.Add to that with new 100ml liquid policy in quart baggie,more reason to leave them behind.

5. Yes, SQ flights continue on to SIN.The passengers going to ICN do not have to change.
6.SQ already flies 77W to USA, to SFO. Will start LAx in the next couple of months.YVR will too come on line sooner than later.

Again I beg to differ on your theory that the lack of J-Upgrade will only effect those want to travel on peak business travel days & time.AC will have to sell those premium seats at premium price at all times. One will find even buying a full "Y" will not get you a seat up in the front.It is the premium cabin revenue that will give AC the return on its investment,not the back of the bus.For the back of the bus it still has tocompete with likes of Oasis & Zoom.
If AC beancounters are smart, they would invest in J- soft product and enhance the FF for J-Paying PAX , with trump card AC holds of having non-stop services from Asia & south Pacific, AC can fill those J-Class seats with revenue paying international based passengers wanting to continue to Europe and not having to transit USA.

Why don't you mention that if it wasn't for the stop in ICN, SQ would lose money on operation in Canada?
:rolleyes:

Will you be so kind to share your source of this statement or is it your own personal view?

From the FA's profile on youtube:

- Lipstick color must be among the few shades of bright red prescribed by the company. Pink or plum colors are not allowed.

- Nail polish must be of the bright red color prescribed by the company. Nails should not be chipped.

-Hair must be black or dark brown. No highlights allowed. Long hair must be coiffed neatly into a bun. Short hair should be above the collar line. Fringe should not touch the eyebrow.

-No fanciful, dangling earrings allowed. Only studs or pearls.

-No chains and necklaces allowed.

-A spare kebaya must be brought for every flight, even short one-hour flights.

Does AC have a similar style guide for FAs?

Yes

Which North American carriers B777's are AC's 2nd rate to? If you keep apples to apples here AC ranks extremely well with their refurb program and new aircraft against virtually every NA airline.

Honestly now, what is the point you are trying to make?

Is your point that AC isn't the best of the best world wide? If so, I agree with you. It's among the best in NA though imo.

I think Jetblue and Southwest is better.;)

Is your point that you want AC to be the best of the best in the world even if that means fares would have to go up to pay for it?

LOL, the fares are as high as they can go, I don't expect a miracle now.:p

Is your point that AC should be the best of the best in the world but not raise prices thus becoming unprofitable and risking going out of business?

It will never be the best in the world as it always seems to be lagging behind the leaders and the trendsetters. Voila I made my points. :o

I'm just not sure what your point is.

Your sentiments are all well and good, but could you please tell the assembled masses here when the last time it was you dropped $10K to fly off somewhere? And how all your travels as re full fare business and first? Going through all your posts since signing on to FT, you've only talked about upgrading from AC's economy fares. Aside from awards, in fact including awards, when did you last fly SQ and CX is Business and First?

SH, I don't discuss my private financial spending habits in public. Upgrading is a benefit for all ff'ers with status, it's not as if I am begging for it from AC. You get the UG good otherwise I pay for J/C or sit in the back like everyone else. I am glad you do your research and keep track of my posts. :p

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/docs/company_info/investor/financial/FY0405_NewsRelease.pdf

================================================== ===
You and I were meant to fly

That�s right, ladies and gentlemen. Canada�s very own superstar diva, Celine Dion, has a new song on the airwaves, and I�ve been humming it all day: �� you and I were meant to fly.� The toe tapping is contagious and this new tune is just one part of Air Canada�s exciting new campaign.

Keep an eye out for our revamped aircraft livery: our Maple Leaf, on the tail of our aircraft, is getting a vibrant makeover.

Call it the evolution of Air Canada. And expect it to energize all aspects of our products and services, from seatback inflight entertainment systems, new seats and redesigned aircraft interiors to innovations at the airport, enhanced Internet services and more choices in fares and services.

Air Canada: a fresh new look, more innovative, world-class products and services.

More world class products - as listed above - does not mean Air Canada considers itself a world class airline as defined by you for the luxury of its front cabin. World class products include AVOD at every seat, the E-Jets and in hindsight, one of the larger 787 orders. Nobody would argue that AVOD at every seat, even in a CRJ-705 isn't world class, nor would they argue that that makes Air Canada world class.

More world class products - as listed above - does not mean Air Canada considers itself a world class airline as defined by you for the luxury of its front cabin. World class products include AVOD at every seat, the E-Jets and in hindsight, one of the larger 787 orders. Nobody would argue that AVOD at every seat, even in a CRJ-705 isn't world class, nor would they argue that that makes Air Canada world class.

I'd take AC's Y seat pitch over SQ's "world class" 31" pitch on the 744 anytime.

My aim in starting this thread was to highlight what other airlines have incorporated and that maybe AC should have looked at these airlines and make improvements. No where in my posts do I suggest that AC should start a First Class section. But I guess I should have expected this, attacks from the regulars who like the status quo and will not even entertain any great ideas or suggestions.

Well, your thread title reads "AC should have learned from the Best ". The "should have" infers they did something wrong by not doing what SQ did. It seems to me AC did some great stuff with their 777's that wasn't in existence before in their fleet, they basically took a big step up. I think AC has done some groundbreaking stuff lately for this market. With the improved seat pitch and AVOD in Y in their CRA's and E1xx's they are clearly in the lead right now with some of their product. The refurbished A319's and A320's are also a superior product.

I'm sorry you feel personally attached but the language of the thread is kind of an attack against anyone who likes what AC is doing right now. To suggest that those who disagree with you "like the status quo and will not even entertain any great ideas or suggestions" also seems a little wonky to me.

SH, I don't discuss my private financial spending habits in public. Upgrading is a benefit for all ff'ers with status, it's not as if I am begging for it from AC. You get the UG good otherwise I pay for J/C or sit in the back like everyone else. I am glad you do your research about my posts. :p

You started off here complaining about a hair in your economy class salad, and have yet to post a single thread that suggests your trips in the front cabin have ever been anything other than AC upgrades...so as long as you protest about how bad the premium services are, you should at least you have some first hand experience with SQ, CX and these other World Class airlines in their front cabins before .....ing about something you've only experienced in simulation on the SQ website.

I guess you are right SH, AC's customer's have no choice but to settle for
2nd rate services. Tch... tch... tch......:(

What's second rate about the new seats and the J-class catering and services? You seem to have an inflated idea of what you should be getting in J versus what certain markets can sustain? The operating environments can be quite different, so a company tailors its product accordingly. AC's objective is to offer more non-stops overseas to major destinations. Remember, SQ and CX and EK depend for more than 95% of their business on customers not originating in their home countries, and thus operate on the hub principal, and thus will require an enroute connection at their major hub. This is why they must make facilities at these hubs extra special for those connections -- and particularly for their premium class customers -- and have something different in their cabins. This is why SQ and CX were among the earliest adopters of the lay-flat bed seat in both First and Business.

NAmerican and European carriers stress this non-stop feature, and thus have been able to benefit on that basis as they move to upgrade their cabin amenities...remember almost all have been through tight financial times and redesigning their "domestic" networks and cost structures to deal with LCCs, slowing down the transition of new interiors for a bit longer than they'd have liked. It thus becomes a trade off between varying degrees and approaches to premium cabin amenities/design, and convenience of non-stop service to one's ultimate destination (if it is a major world city).

AC is no less World Class because of its new seating than SQ. SQ has by necessity needed to provide a fresh new approach for the specific reasons I have laid out. This is the same reason LH has adopted its First Class Terminal, and middle east carriers are also stressing their dedicated First/Business Class facilities at their hubs.

If you want to fly this type of premium service, there is nothing stopping you. Though SQ is only offering this new seat on a limited number of routes for competitive reasons. Fly to SFO and pay the $8K-$10K and take them. Remember though, that there is a stop in Soeul before getting to SIN, and if SIN is not your final destination, another connection onward from there. AC will get you to a half dozen cities around the Pacific rim non-stop from YVR or YYZ, and with its new seats by year's end as the 763 fleet is converted and more 777s are added. Of course, you're only paying for an upgradeable coach seat on AC, so there's quite a difference to the airline too: $1,500 versus $8,000+.

If you really want caviar and champagne, buy a First Class ticket and travel with your peers...but you'd better have the bank account to support such indulgence.

I don't know how many false premises you can cram into one thread.

..................
2. Air Canada does not define itself as a "world class" airline. British Airways has called itself the World's Favorite Airline. Toronto has tried to define itself as a world class city, but I am not aware of Air Canada defining itself as a "world class airline". That's your characterization. AC will talk about its network utility for Canadians and other advantages, but it has not had pretensions to being world class for two decades now. The day it abolished First Class around 1992, it abandoned any such pretentions. It is what it is, Canada's major international carrier catering to what Canadians are willing to pay for scheduled daily servicesFrankly, you sound like a Kipling character, hoping that if you kiss up to SQ long enough perhaps it will allow you into the privileged class, the aristocracy, of F and fully paid J.
================================================== ===
You and I were meant to fly

That�s right, ladies and gentlemen. Canada�s very own superstar diva, Celine Dion, has a new song on the airwaves, and I�ve been humming it all day: �� you and I were meant to fly.� The toe tapping is contagious and this new tune is just one part of Air Canada�s exciting new campaign.

Keep an eye out for our revamped aircraft livery: our Maple Leaf, on the tail of our aircraft, is getting a vibrant makeover.

Call it the evolution of Air Canada. And expect it to energize all aspects of our products and services, from seatback inflight entertainment systems, new seats and redesigned aircraft interiors to innovations at the airport, enhanced Internet services and more choices in fares and services.

Air Canada: a fresh new look, more innovative, world-class products and services.

As soon as the "real liberalization" occurs, we have no choice but to suffer with AC.

And what do you have now? If you don't like AC, then you've got lots of alternatives: WS is now a mature airline domestically, offers a good seat pitch, comfortable leather seats and inflight "live" TV. What more do you want, other than a free upgrade?

Transborder, there's a US carrier on just about every route that can sustain competition. Where there is only AC or JAZZ, it means there just aren't enough customers to support two carriers. No amount of Liberalization is going to change business decisions made on a sound market-viability basis.

Internationally, SQ flies from YVR. If it doesn't feel this is a route worth offering First Class and/or its new seats, then that decision is made on sound economic grounds of what the market will support. If you don't like SQ, then just about every other Asian airline flies into YVR these days. And on this side of the country, just about every carrier flies from YYZ or YUL to Europe, and you can take your choice of amenities.

If none of these are to your liking, you're just a flight away from the major US gateways where you can chose from just about every major airline in the world, in every type of premium service imaginable.

And if that is not enough for you, there is nothing stopping you from chartering your own plane with whatever amenities on board as you like, and of course, can afford.

So don't give us this "Liberalization" BS. Further liberalization will really only affect the down end of the market, putting further pressure on operating margins in the back cabins of the legacy carriers, and possibly leading to higher prices in the front cabins to off-set this drain.

Handicapped by government protectionism? Hm, why don't you say Canadian carriers are handicapped by not being related at all to the national government while SQ is? Why don't you mention that SQ doesn't play on a level playing field as Canadian carriers? Why don't you mention that if it wasn't for the stop in ICN, SQ would lose money on operation in Canada? Why don't you just say that the Canadian government is in the business of protecting Canadian carriers?

:rolleyes:

Your previous warnings of O8 had not received Canadian governmental approval to operate HKG/YVR were duly noted.:D

(Your more recent warnings about EK's proposed service to Canada being subject to Canadian governmental approval are also duly noted.)

Has anyone here flown the SQ new J? I'm thinking of trying it on a YYZ-LAX-TPE-MNL in a couple of months... would of course return the fast way via HKG on the AC 777.For the same price (maybe even cheaper)you can fly MH F on the LAX/TPE route!

Has anyone here flown the SQ new J? I'm thinking of trying it on a YYZ-LAX-TPE-MNL in a couple of months... would of course return the fast way via HKG on the AC 777.

I have. Nothing to get excited about. I prefer SQ 747 J & F seats.
I have not had an opportunity to fly AC 777 or any of AC's refrb 767 so I cannot comment.

BTW, SQ doesn't provide amenity kits for its business class customers, and other world class carriers like LH have a very minimal one for those exaulted customers. It has been a long while since I have come across caviar in business class on these World Class carriers...though I must admit to not having flown CX or SQ or BA or LH in business class across the Pacific or Atlantic lately, favouring First Class when it was available.

SQ's market is quite different from AC's and the competition dictates another leap in creating a cabin space and experience that will help keep its premium customers from being taken by EK and CX, among others. AC's premium customers will be quite satisfied by the new cabins which themselves represent a certain generational evolution of business class seating. Since SQ can extract more dollars from a strong international business community clustered around the Asian/Australian basin, it can afford the trade-offs required to make this new form of seating cost-effective. AC and NAmerican airlines cannot economically justify this, nor can any European longhaul carriers. This seat product will distinguish SQ enough from EK -- its new major challenger for its prime customer base -- to retain its core business traveler base. Just as AC serving champagne and caviar would be throwing money down the drain, so too would adopting the SQ seat at this stage of its renewal.

As if to make the point, we have a big front page story today about how much the federal silly service spends on air travel, and most of the comments suggest our senior bureaucrats are spending too much. One self-appointed special interest watchdog even suggested that there is a good reason why Economy class exists, and that's where our bureaucrats should be. So you see where the Canadian mindset is at. Basically, "if I not in First Class, neither should you..."

Personally, I find it pathetic. We complain that our corporate leaders are quick to sell out Canadian head offices and corporate icons to foreigners, but we moan and whine about anything that even has a vague aura of success. We love to tear down success stories, kind of a collective Schadenfraude.

But I guess I should have expected this, attacks from the regulars who like the status quo and will not even entertain any great ideas or suggestions.

Didn't sound like that great of a suggestion to me; be more like someone else? IMHO, AC can be a very good airline and have a good Exec. First product without pitching it all in an attempt to be something they aren't.

I guess you are right SH, AC's customer's have no choice but to settle for
2nd rate services. Tch... tch... tch......:(

Which North American carriers B777's are AC's 2nd rate to? If you keep apples to apples here AC ranks extremely well with their refurb program and new aircraft against virtually every NA airline.

Honestly now, what is the point you are trying to make?

Is your point that AC isn't the best of the best world wide? If so, I agree with you. It's among the best in NA though imo.

Is your point that you want AC to be the best of the best in the world even if that means fares would have to go up to pay for it?

Is your point that AC should be the best of the best in the world but not raise prices thus becoming unprofitable and risking going out of business?

I'm just not sure what your point is.

I think AC can afford to charge more to business pax (many of whom fly paid J) because it offers a daily service whereas SQ can only offer a three weekly. SQ's fare would have to be quite competitive to convince people to change their schedules to a day when SQ operates YVR-ICN

Cheers

Hmmm...is that kind of extravagance a bit un-Canadian?

AC did as much with its 777s as it thought it needed to do. It's probably safe to say they were aware that an SQ-type cabin existed.

Obviously, Canadians (and our businesses) don't like living it up in business class on the 773 ER then :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je8LBlwYJBw&NR=1

#If you have any other info about this subject , Please add it free.#

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